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Jumping Skills, are you safe to be doing it??

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  • Jumping Skills, are you safe to be doing it??

    We see it over and over and over again. Novice beginner and even some intermediate riders.
    the million dollar question to ask your selfs.
    do i truly have the skill to be doing this Jump??
    simple answer, fill the face with ruts and kicker, can you still do that jump clean every lap without death grip, couple payers, 4 leaf clover and 1 min breath hold??
    if your answer to that question is i go this way or that way and pucker over rutted jump face then your air control and bike skills are limited and 80% of the jumps your doing are truly over your head and your a accident waiting to happen.
    If you can use all the bike controls in the air then your in control.
    everything you do on the bike on the ground, brakes- Gas- turn work exactly the same in the air.
    If you turn bars right front end goes right, turn left front goes left. Pull in clutch hit rear brake nose goes down, gas it nose goes up.
    you get a kick you turn bars to direction rear tire is being kicked and peel the throttle on to stop the back tire from trying to pass the front.
    All these skill need to be taken serous, and honed in starting on 10ft jumps and as skill progresses so does the jumping distance.
    tracks have gotten so easy to jump with big suspension and smooth take offs that your getting away with doing things you got no business doing and your going to hurt yourself and others.
    this is motocross, it’s not TT, or flat track, we shouldn’t be taking time after first round to groom the track to make it safer.
    that’s horse crap, you the rider make it safer, fixing jumps so those who don’t have the skill to jump them safely isn’t making the track safer, it’s catering to the cause!!
    you should enjoy the rough track more then the smooth track as it slowed the pace and rewards those who put in the work and change up there lines and utilize the whole track.
    you don’t have to be an expert or master to use the whole width of the track, you just have to stop playing follow the leader.
    You getting tired of tracks with one line, well you have the same basic tires that made all those lines so feel free to roam about, specially in practice where lap times don’t matter, or is there a now a trophy for winning practice?

  • #2
    Good thoughts to ponder

    Comment


    • #3
      I think I won practice a few times but forgot to pick up my trophy 🤣 Good post btw Tim. I'm gonna find some smaller jumps and hone my skills on all those things you talked about.

      Comment


      • #4
        I got few texts asking me how can you learn to be safe jumping?
        it’s actually quite easy but it takes a while to hone the skills.
        start off with a braking bump, yes braking bump. Hit the bump and try to toss the rear end out to left or right once you can loft that back end out 1-2ft switch to other side one direction then the other. Now that you can toss the back end out pick a spot to toss the rear out onto, so your training to place it in a given spot.
        now use small table top, only go 20to30% of the distance. So u be landing say half way at the furthest on the flat.
        first time land back wheel first, then both wheels same time then slightly front wheel first. Repeat till you can do it every time, now try kick back end out just like off the braking bump. So toss the back out then turn front wheel full lock in same direction you tossed back and slight rip on the throttle, all while only doing 20% of the smaller table 5ft distance max. Once you throw the back out and turn bars get the bike straight before you land your now ready to go 30% then 40% till you finally do whole distance.
        If you frequent a track with whoops roll the whoops till the second to last one and practice seat bouncing to get over the last one again hard snap throttle and you want to practice landing back, both then front tire.

        but when you really sit down and analyze motocross, there usually 50% more turns then jumps. The best scrub in world vs straight is good for .02 seconds, the best to average turn is good for 2+ seconds.
        So basically you jump for show and corner for Dough.

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        • #5
          Thanks Tim - how do I apply some or any of this when trying to decide whether or not to attempt a double jump that is over my comfort zone? If I attempt it - but at 3/4 speed - I will likely come up short which many times causes a big bounce - or worse landing on my front tire into an uphill slope - * over the bars I will go. The alternative is to attempt to launch myself WFO - and hope for the best. As an old Novice, table top jumps allow me to learn to keep increasing my speed. Double jumps are not forgiving - as I learn the track, eventually many of them are small enough that I can eventually anticipate and make. Bigger ones are just not worth the risk - although sometimes I am tempted.

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          • #6
            Russ, how do you learn this, well best way is to use references on table tops, put a mark on ground or a visual landing spot.
            put a mark you can reference on every jump before u clear them.
            and try to execute the jump so you land on your mark. The more practice you get at landing on your mark the better you get at not coming up short and learning to hit your mark.

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            • #7
              Tim, your post has me wondering what you are really trying to say here. You titled it "Jumping Skills, are you really safe to be doing it" but go on to insult those who know they don't have the skills yet. The timing of this post also seems to be on the heels of the Reno Nationals where there was a lot of drama with track design and its safety.
              As a newer member (4 or 5 years now) I have become good friends with many members of this awesome club. I have learned that as much as we all want to take home the trophy, we all know we have to be back to work Monday and ride according... most of the time. This club has a very diverse range of riders from Masters to Beginners, Iron man to once a year racers, 30's to 80+... we are far from a group of AMA Pro's. I also learned that it wasn't all that long ago that we didn't even have a women's class and now we have enough women to have a separate moto just for them most races. The diversity of this club is what makes it great.
              With all that said, your comments about changing the track or grooming it for the less experienced riders is not in the best interests of what this club is about. You say that grooming shouldn't be done but I have yet to see a Pro motocross/ Supercross race that hasn't done some level of track prep between motos.
              This brings me to track changes, unsafe track designs that run the risk for severely hurting riders prove nothing, specifically gap jumps. What is the point of an obstacle that a beginner rider can not safely navigate? The fast guys could care less if the jump is a table top, step up, gap or whatever because they fly over all of it, but the less skilled pay the price. I personally know several people who were hurt by gap jumps, one who will never ride again and is still in the hospital with a broken back!
              To prove my point, REP racing, MMX, Argyll, Club Moto all have very successful racing facilities that don't endanger their rider with gap jumps, some even advertise this fact.
              So now on to practicing jumps to improve your skills, you ideas are great ones. Start small and build up is always the smart path but actually being able to do this on a track full of rocket fast kids can be very dangerous too. We all know working one obstacle over and over is a great way to learn but exiting and entering a busy track is a good way to get run over.
              We all know that Motocross is a dangerous sport, but to deliberately build obstacles that serve no real purpose other than to hurt riders and drive members out of the club is just stupid!
              I would really hope that future events held for OTHG members keep that fact that most of us are weekend warriors with lower skill levels in mind.

              Mike Hall 454s
              45 Novice

              Comment


              • Drake557s
                Drake557s commented
                Editing a comment
                All of those tracks have some type of gap jump, some with steeper faces then others. I would be fine with all tables, although, if you hit the end of a table and bounce off, you can get thrown off pretty hard.

            • #8
              Our track was neutered for the national. You should have been there two weeks earlier when we had 620 riders and 28 motos. I was moto 23 that day. My first moto went off at 2:30 and my second went off at 6:15. The take offs were 3' shorter. The landings were 3' taller. The stupid little triple was three whoops the same size. The jump near the pits and the jump after the whoops were singles to a true table top. They were turned into penguins. We had real braking bumps and comb like jump faces. Every turn had a whoop section in it. Every square inch of the track was a washboard. It was true motocross track.
              The national track looked like the Peoria TT by comparison.

              Comment


              • #9
                Larry,
                oh, I don't doubt that you had a very rough track that day and most of it sounds like a fun challenge. What I'm talking about is an obstacle that a true beginner OTHG rider can not roll over without being thrown over the bars.
                I know it's tough for fast guys to comprehend, but we do have a group of riders in OTHG that have the same fire in their veins and love of racing but not the skills yet to safely navigate certain obstacles as the fast guys.
                The track was fun, it was relatively smooth and simple compared to other races I'm sure but some of you forget that what's a speed bump to you is a mountain to some. I'm in no was suggesting we race flat track, all I'm saying is that a beginner should be able to roll the track without ending up with a broken neck.

                Mike Hall 454s

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                • #10
                  Mike if your wondering what I’m trying to say, just read what i wrote. There no punches pulled or sugar coating.
                  i wrote exactly what i was thinking. As for your comment about rolling an obstacle without being thrown over bars, there was no such obstacles on that course. What there was was obstacles that if you didn’t roll and lofted you stick. Roll means roll wheels on ground. There nothing on that track that would crash you out if you rolled it. But i will say this. When there a jump you can’t or won’t do because of comfort or skill there still something to learn. How do i stay on the ground and go faster, not just loft and punt. Suck up the face with your body then extend once bike leaves ground pushing bike towards the ground. It’s a skill used on track in many places that are not being utilized as everyone to gung Ho to jump.
                  mid you put 20% of the effort into Manuel and pumping obstacles in place of jumping them you just might find a way to go faster and not have to jump.
                  example some time ago i rolled every jump on the track at 408 in the race just to show a student you don’t have to jump to win. To many people think you loose all the time or you win of you jump. Truth is you win if you have best corner speed and learn how to Manuel jump faces you can’t clear. You save time and energy and have more for the corners. Most the time you go through the corner worries about the jump and blow the corner because your so desperately trying to make the jump your focus isn’t on what’s under your tires right now.

                  and yes, this post was created because of all the attempts to jump a rutted face that the club was very lucky that 5 times number of crashes didn’t happen. There was hundreds of close calls. That’s not the tracks fault. That riders riding over there head because they don’t want to roll the gap but don’t think about soaking the jump face up with a Manuel that would be faster and safer.
                  mod you see the top pros hitting the big singles wide open?? They got the skill and suspension? But they choose to Manuel it and stay low to ground and drive as it’s not worth the energy to send it.
                  One other comment. On site lap a lot of the lower class man have a habit of going twice as fast as the masters on a site lap.
                  why is it a rider with half the skill is going twice the speed off things a rider with double his speed has in a race?? What’s that tell you??
                  mid you do a site lap at your max speed what did you site?? The one line you rode and that’s it!! And you lucky there wasn’t more blind obstacles that crashed you because you where stupid.
                  there hasn’t been one obstacle on any track in last 5 years that would crash you if you truly rolled it wheels on ground till you learned what to do.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Tim29b View Post
                    this is motocross, it’s not TT, or flat track, we shouldn’t be taking time after first round to groom the track to make it safer.
                    that’s horse crap, you the rider make it safer, fixing jumps so those who don’t have the skill to jump them safely isn’t making the track safer, it’s catering to the cause!!
                    I don't think the approach you're talking about in the quote above would work out too well Tim. You make some good points on practicing (and good tips too) but making the tracks more unsafe for weekend warriors in an effort to force riders to get better could have the opposite affect. Probably for about half the intermediates and below to be honest.

                    We know when the OTHG comes to town the track owners rip shallower and do other measures to try to make it as safe as possible for the less skilled that are in the club. If you want deeper rips with deep rutted jump faces there are other series for that (REP, AMP etc.) I think of the OTHG as an important stepping stone to racing those series' if one chooses. There are riders that are in OTHG that have been in the club for a decade or more...and are still in the Novice class. What does that tell you?

                    I didn't buy/ride my first dirt bike until I was 47...did my first race in OTHG at 49...I'm 53 now (52 Novice)and I can tell you sending 90ft triples off rutted jump faces is not in the cards for me. I'm still on the same 250F I bought 5 years ago! lol I don't think I'm ready for a 450 yet (even though my gate is full of them). There really is only so much better you can get in moto with an aging body like many of us old squids in the club. I'm going into my 5th season and I have been lucky to avoid any hospital visits so far (knock on wood) cause I generally don't ride over my head.

                    I'm grateful for the OTHG in it's current form...it allows me to hang out with the awesome friends I've made...and even though I finish mid or back of the pack...I do it with a big smile on my face!

                    Peace!
                    Last edited by Jeff292b; 06-15-2021, 02:29 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      No your just reading it wrong. Everyone in gang is weekend warrior, no one is getting a salary to ride.
                      grooming the track and enabling is what I’m trying to say.
                      ride within your means, look up, change your line, drive around the bumps, how many times are u gonna hit that square edge before you adjust your line to go around it??
                      there still 40% of the track that is untouched at end of the day.
                      Why can’t you adjust to the track and ride smarter.
                      do we need to take everyone’s bullets away from them as well, loaded gun is dangerous, or do you practice safe handling of fire arms to make it safer??
                      the moral to story is know you’re limits, know your ability, adjust your lines go around the bumps, look ahead.
                      you don’t have to be a masters class rider to drive around the bumps and find new lines.
                      but if you keep grooming then no one will change there approach.
                      i wasn’t born with the ability to ride a rough track, i get to practice late and ride the end of the day when tracks are hammered and learn to ride rough, how to setup a bike and how to drive around those bumps that hurt you.
                      It’s not rocket science we trying to teach, just little self control and heads up riding.
                      It’s proven fact, rough bumps make more lines. More lines makes better racing, better racing is more fun.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        I understand what you're saying and the reasoning behind it.

                        You mentioned this thread was started because of what you saw at Fernley...Fernley is a true sand track and a different animal then what most are used to in our normal track rotation. A sand track with sand jump faces that break down more than the hard pack faces we're used requires a different riding style and more skill for sure. It just seems to me you're taking the last race at Fernley and applying it to all Novices and Beginners at all the races.

                        I actually don't know which Tim I'm talking to...the #29b at the end of your name has belonged to Jeff Whittaker since i've been in the club. (our former prez). So I'm going to assume you ride expert and I don't know how much you've actually raced with OTHG Novices and Beginners in the last 5 years. I've raced between 70-80 motos with these guys and girls over the last 4 years...and this "epidemic" of Novices and Beginners just hurling themselves into unsafe situations that you seem to be describing is not something I've seen as the "Norm" for sure.
                        Plenty of races where the ambulance hasn't budged and I've been in lots of motos with pretty much no Yellow flags and everyone doing what you're describing. Riding within their skill...picking good lines and rolling jumps they're not comfortable hitting.

                        There are exceptions of course...and Beginners and Novices are always going to be more prone to injury than the more skilled classes. But as they get better/faster and safer...they will move up and a new crop of riders will take their place needing to hone those skills...rinse and repeat.

                        Not trying to ruffle any feathers...I just don't think your "perception" quite matches up with reality speaking as someone who actually races in these classes.

                        Cheers!

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Jeff292b View Post
                          I understand what you're saying and the reasoning behind it.

                          You mentioned this thread was started because of what you saw at Fernley...Fernley is a true sand track and a different animal then what most are used to in our normal track rotation. A sand track with sand jump faces that break down more than the hard pack faces we're used requires a different riding style and more skill for sure. It just seems to me you're taking the last race at Fernley and applying it to all Novices and Beginners at all the races.

                          I actually don't know which Tim I'm talking to...the #29b at the end of your name has belonged to Jeff Whittaker since i've been in the club. (our former prez). So I'm going to assume you ride expert and I don't know how much you've actually raced with OTHG Novices and Beginners in the last 5 years. I've raced between 70-80 motos with these guys and girls over the last 4 years...and this "epidemic" of Novices and Beginners just hurling themselves into unsafe situations that you seem to be describing is not something I've seen as the "Norm" for sure.
                          Plenty of races where the ambulance hasn't budged and I've been in lots of motos with pretty much no Yellow flags and everyone doing what you're describing. Riding within their skill...picking good lines and rolling jumps they're not comfortable hitting.

                          There are exceptions of course...and Beginners and Novices are always going to be more prone to injury than the more skilled classes. But as they get better/faster and safer...they will move up and a new crop of riders will take their place needing to hone those skills...rinse and repeat.

                          Not trying to ruffle any feathers...I just don't think your "perception" quite matches up with reality speaking as someone who actually races in these classes.

                          Cheers!
                          Jeff he races the master class and usually does a fair amount of races with us yearly. I don't think our number and color system applies to masters other than you still have to have a letter after it...

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by Andrew225s View Post

                            Jeff he races the master class and usually does a fair amount of races with us yearly. I don't think our number and color system applies to masters other than you still have to have a letter after it...
                            I understand Masters can run whatever background/number colors they want...but #29b currently belongs to a different rider. I'm pretty sure they can't take a number that already belongs to another rider? I'm guessing it's just a typo when he joined this forum...it made it more difficult to understand who I was talking to is all.

                            Thanks Andrew!
                            Last edited by Jeff292b; 06-16-2021, 11:46 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Drake557s
                              Drake557s commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Hi Jeff,
                              Masters can run any color background or number they desire as long as they have a club chapter letter. Tim Tynan has ran that number, I believe, since his PRO days. Tim knows what he is talking about. Take his advise, and you will learn much grasshopper.
                              PS. My crash was not related to jumping.
                              Last edited by Drake557s; 06-17-2021, 08:02 AM.
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